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0:00you’re listening to the listen up show
0:02dart of entrepreneur podcast I’m
0:03Mitchell Chad row your host today on
0:05show 0 2 eights all about startups
0:08entrepreneurs business owners and those
0:11with careers who deep down inside really
0:14do want to start up friend in your
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0:21let’s get started on today show 0 to 8
0:25we actually have Christopher gimmer he’s
0:27a marketer he’s an entrepreneur he’s a
0:29bootstrapper and he’s also co-founder of
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1:01transcript for each interview my ebaugh
1:0330 tools to start up the startup
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1:12chad road calm / sign up enjoy the show
1:15so how you doing today I’m doing very
1:17good happy to be on here yeah I mean
1:20that was basically the globalists Nava
1:22is that not everyone has access to you
1:25know expensive graphic designers not
1:27everyone has photoshop and even the
1:30people that do have photoshop skills
1:32sometimes they don’t have the time to
1:33use a software like that so we really
1:36just wanted to create you know something
1:38simple and easy to use that you know a
1:40lot of marketers and entrepreneurs could
1:43could get value from so that you know
1:45they didn’t spend hours designing
1:47graphics they can get it done quickly
1:49and and get back to you know what’s
1:53what’s a more valuable use of their time
1:54you start out and fine it and you’re
1:57actually working for the government you
1:59know you could be doing this for like
2:00the next 30 years and at the end of 30
2:02years you know you get that shiny watch
2:04that they give you you know you go in
2:06you know five days a week
2:08and next thing you know you’re 25 30
2:10years in so what what actually was it
2:13that made you that you know what maybe
2:16this is not really what I want to do I
2:19actually want to kind of jump in and
2:21start my own graphic design start on
2:23yeah so you know I I was really
2:26interested in finance and kind of the
2:28stock market in general and I kind of
2:30graduated in at the worst time ever
2:33which was like the 2008 crisis so there
2:35was pretty much like really hard to get
2:37a job in finance at the time and so you
2:39know I ended up working as a financial
2:41analyst for the government and like you
2:43said I mean but you know before I quit I
2:45hadn’t really good salary really good
2:47benefits the vacation and you know I was
2:50pretty much set and from the outside
2:51looking in you know looked like I was
2:53doing really well but you know when you
2:55look I looked at the people around me
2:57and the people who were kind of
2:59approaching retirement they literally
3:00had calendars where they were counting
3:02down the days until they retired and you
3:05know I just kind of thought like I don’t
3:07want to be wishing my life away and just
3:09waiting till the day I retire like that
3:11just didn’t seem like a good use of a
3:14light for me so you know even though I
3:16was making good money and I had the
3:17benefit I just wasn’t passionate about
3:19what I was doing and the other thing
3:21that kind of it was a turning point for
3:24me was when I traveled to South East
3:26Asia and just had such an amazing trip I
3:28was there for about a month and when I
3:30got back I just you know didn’t really
3:32want us in the cubicle for the next 11
3:35months of the year and so that’s when my
3:37brain started jogging of you know what
3:39look business could I start that it
3:41could afford me a bit more freedom and
3:42you know also allow me to do things that
3:45was a little more passionate about our
3:47startup around for all your hosting
3:49needs head on over to Mitchell Chad road
3:52calm / hosting Mitchell Chad road calm
3:56flash hosting for all your web hosting
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4:01you know there’s so many people out
4:03there that are listening there whether
4:04they’re college students or their there
4:07in an internship and they’re deciding
4:09you know am I going to work for someone
4:11else do I want to work for myself
4:12there’s so many people like you said who
4:14have those calendars they’re they’re
4:16kicking down the days maybe retirement
4:19is five years into the future or ten
4:20years into the future and the
4:22r in a cubicle it’s totally soulless
4:24what do you say to them I mean you had
4:26already gotten into the federal
4:27government you were doing finance which
4:29by the way i also like myself you were
4:31making decent money there’s a lot of
4:33people out there who are actually
4:34similarly situated and for one reason or
4:36another whether it be through fear other
4:39people telling them that they’re not
4:41going to be able to make it what do you
4:42what do you say to some of those people
4:44to sort of say you know what you can do
4:46it I was here I was able to do it what
4:48can you can you actually say to them yes
4:50so the way that I did it essentially was
4:54you know I I kept working my job I
4:57didn’t just you know walk out there and
4:58quit one day and basically what I
5:00started doing is just working on stuff
5:02on the side on nice and weekend and so I
5:05really didn’t learn really didn’t know
5:07anything about starting a business or
5:08online marketing at the time so I just
5:10started listening to tons of podcasts
5:13and and reading tons of blogs and books
5:16about the subject and then I also add
5:19met mark who who’s now my co-founder and
5:21we just started you know working on
5:24stuff together and you know snappa was
5:26really like four years in the making i
5:28mean the first two things that we
5:30started didn’t really work out as
5:32planned but we learned a ton from that
5:35the third thing that we started was fair
5:38i would say reasonably successful and
5:40now snap o is essentially our fourth
5:43project and now it’s and this is doing
5:46really well so you know i would say to
5:49them just know that it just you know
5:51make sure you’re in it for the long haul
5:53I mean the first thing you start may not
5:55work and as long as you keep at it you
5:58know I think you know as long as you
6:00play the long game you know you can get
6:03there and the other thing I would say
6:05about the subject is you know I think
6:08that a lot of people can be very happy
6:11as employers I mean like I i live in
6:14ottawa and so Shopify is headquartered
6:16here and i have a few friends that work
6:17for stop of phi and they just absolutely
6:19love it so you know that’s the other
6:22thing to consider too i don’t think like
6:24you have to be an entrepreneur have to
6:26run your own business in order to be
6:28happy but you know just be careful about
6:31you know what you’re what you’re doing
6:34just make sure you’re passionate about
6:36and you’ll be good to go you know it’s
6:39interesting you know you mentioned that
6:40this is actually your fourth and that
6:42some of the earlier ones that we’ll get
6:44into in a second maybe didn’t work out
6:46or may may have been sort of sort of
6:50successful however you want to define
6:51that and yet that didn’t discourage you
6:54and here this is your fourth so in a lot
6:57of ways it’s almost like being a serial
6:58entrepreneur we’re never giving up which
7:01is one of my mottos so there’s possibly
7:03people out there that might have several
7:07years back try to start something and
7:09for whatever reason there might have not
7:11have been a lot of traction they gave up
7:13maybe too quickly I mean what do you
7:15tell them because you know one of the
7:17things that I’m hearing from you is that
7:18you know if you don’t if you don’t
7:21succeed right away try try again next
7:24business that next idea might be the one
7:27so can you tell us a little bit about
7:29some of the other ones that you start it
7:31up and maybe what you learned from those
7:33maybe some of the things that worked or
7:35maybe some of the things that that
7:37didn’t work and how you eventually came
7:39to snap up in terms of much more success
7:41than the other three so that’s a great
7:42question you know I I feel like feeling
7:45kind of get glorified at least in the
7:47startup culture now and everyone’s like
7:49all fail fast and then whatever and so I
7:51don’t think you should ever you know try
7:52to fail so my kind of thinking on this
7:56whole thing has been as long as you
7:57learn from your mistake and you don’t do
7:59them the second time then failing is ok
8:01but I’ve seen time and time again that
8:03people you know try to start things
8:05three four five times and they fail but
8:08they’re making the exact same mistakes
8:09and they’re not learning from it um so
8:11you know if someone tried something and
8:13failed then I would say you know take a
8:15step back really evaluate okay what
8:18happened why didn’t work out be
8:19cognizant be you know be mindful of that
8:22and make sure that you don’t repeat
8:24those mistake the second time and kind
8:26of improve and so you know like I said
8:28this is kind of four years in and each
8:30you know business i start each marketing
8:33experiment i do i’m always kind of
8:35adding to my toolkit and you know i’m
8:38very mindful of what what worked what
8:40hadn’t why not and then I can kind of
8:43fine tune that as I’m forward so just to
8:45give a quick quick back story I guess on
8:48on the different businesses
8:49um the first one that we started was a
8:52college dating website and we had
8:54actually gotten about a thousand users
8:56in the first couple months but we really
8:58just didn’t think the business model
8:59very through it was one of those things
9:01where just um you know monetizing based
9:05on ad revenue you mean you need a ton
9:07ton of users and we were obviously
9:08bootstrap there’s no way we could have
9:10never raised money for that we were just
9:12two kids that didn’t know what we were
9:13doing and I also didn’t know how to
9:15market the business like that was that
9:17was the point where you know I hadn’t
9:20really started listening to podcasts and
9:22blogs and really learning how to do it
9:24and then the second business was
9:25essentially a guestlist application
9:28because um actually used to be a djing
9:30University and you know what I learned
9:33from that was even if you build a really
9:35awesome product not everyone is going to
9:38pay you for it not everyone’s going to
9:39use it for you and so that’s hot us a
9:41really even the first business how does
9:43a really big lesson about validation and
9:46so you know every business that we
9:48started after that before we even
9:50started building the product we made
9:52absolutely sure that people were willing
9:55to pay for it and there is actually a
9:57need for those products and I think that
9:59is probably the biggest mistake that you
10:01know first-time entrepreneurs make is
10:03they start you know building software
10:05they start coming up with some product
10:07before they even have anyone to sell it
10:10to or they even know that people are
10:12actually going to buy it and so what
10:13ends up happening is you just waste a
10:15lot of time you know it’s interesting
10:17because you mentioned that the dating
10:19website that you first started actually
10:21had a thousand users and I know up until
10:24recently snappa actually had it over
10:27maybe just slightly over a thousand paid
10:30users and so there’s a lot of theories
10:32out there that say okay let’s validate
10:34this thing let’s build this thing to a
10:37thousand users or even before you get
10:39there to make sure that you know there’s
10:42going to be people that are going to pay
10:44and so you were actually able to get to
10:46a thousand and so you know I’m just
10:48wondering you know what happened there
10:51that you were able to sort of break that
10:53thousand user mark and yet you said
10:56yourself this thing’s really not i’m not
11:00really marketing this thing properly is
11:02it
11:02cause you actually needed more than a
11:03thousand so basically those thousand
11:06users all came from our hometown so the
11:10way that we got off the ground there was
11:12literally just putting up fliers and
11:16posters around the three campuses that
11:18we were targeting we also got some press
11:22mentions because I had emailed you know
11:25the local newspapers and they’re a lot
11:28more willing to write about you if you
11:30know you from you know they’re much more
11:33willing to write about local people and
11:35also when I had reached out to like the
11:38school newspapers I would you know say
11:40oh I was a former soon here so again
11:42they’re much more likely to write about
11:43you so what ended up happening was we
11:45actually got a lot of users from Ottawa
11:49my you know where where we’re from I
11:51issue was that expanding outside of her
11:54own city was much more difficult because
11:56you know we couldn’t drive to all these
11:59other schools and and put flyers up
12:01right we had to do it online or we had
12:05to do you know it’s harder to get press
12:07mentions and stuff like that so the
12:10marketing just became much more
12:11difficult outside of her own city and at
12:14the time we weren’t monetizing the site
12:16in any way and that was basically the
12:18issue right is all the users weren’t
12:20paying us anything we were making money
12:22off like Google ads which was pretty
12:26much nothing this it wasn’t it was in
12:29the early days of google ads where
12:30people made a lot of money so you know
12:33we were making a couple hundred bucks
12:34and a month and like that was that was
12:36about it not enough to sustain a
12:39business so they were users but they
12:41weren’t paying users and so I know it
12:43comes down to not all users are equal
12:47you know you’re looking at it from from
12:49a sales and marketing perspective that
12:51hey at the end of the day this is a
12:53product that needs to be sold and if you
12:55have a number of people coming to your
12:58site but they’re not actually paying for
13:00the actual product itself that thousand
13:02really isn’t a thousand it’s it’s
13:04something quite less than that so I
13:06guess that makes more sense and so then
13:08what happens after that learn I wouldn’t
13:10necessarily say that it was a failure
13:12but you certainly learned from that and
13:14and you you got on to your next endeavor
13:16and maybe what happened with that to
13:18sort of them spur you on to snap so kind
13:22of after that and I’ll lumpa I won’t go
13:24too much into detail and the second
13:26thing this is more or less kind of the
13:28same same story so by the time they
13:31launched her third business at this
13:32point I was like ah right I need to
13:35figure out you know how to do this
13:37online marketing thing and that’s where
13:38I really started to you know learn as
13:40much as I could and you know we got a
13:42bit more serious about you know
13:44validating and making sure we had a
13:46proper business model so the the thing
13:49we started before snappa was called
13:51bootstrap bay and it was essentially a
13:53marketplace for like web design themes
13:56and templates so at the time we were
13:58basically just building websites for
14:03people just just for a little bit of
14:05stuff on the side and we’re using the
14:07bootstrap framework to build these
14:10website and we started noticing that it
14:11was getting really popular and so
14:13essentially what I did was I started we
14:16started looking at what the search
14:17volumes were for some of these keywords
14:20like bootstrap teens and bootstrap
14:22template and we found that there was you
14:24know tons of surge valium which to us
14:26indicated that there was a lot of demand
14:29in a big market for it and when we
14:30looked at the competition there was
14:32essentially one site that was kind of
14:34doing the same thing but we thought
14:36there was there were some areas of
14:38improvement so that was basically the
14:40third thing we launched it was a
14:41marketplace for four themes and
14:43templates filth off bootstrap we ended
14:46up building that to about 10k and
14:48revenue I think after boat like less
14:51than a year i think it was like eight
14:52months or something like that and so
14:54that was actually the business where
14:56were actually made enough money to quit
14:59our jobs and then I got you yeah and so
15:02while while we were building bootstrap
15:04Bay I was doing a lot of content
15:06marketing and that’s where I kind of had
15:08the pain that led me to you know start
15:11snappa which was I was writing all this
15:13blog content but I was just struggling
15:15to create these images because we didn’t
15:17have money for a designer I was in very
15:19skilled in Photoshop and at the time we
15:21also saw that the competition for the
15:25themes and templates was getting really
15:27intense and the
15:27other thing was we’re basically selling
15:29a commodity I mean there’s only so much
15:31that you can innovate on the website
15:32itself and so we really saw with with
15:35snappa that it was just a much bigger
15:37opportunity we can be a lot more
15:39innovative we wanted to owner product
15:42with bootstrap a we’re basically selling
15:44other people’s products so that was
15:46really what what led us to start snappa
15:48yeah no no that that’s that’s really
15:50really cool so when I when I heard about
15:52bootstrap a and about you bootstrapping
15:55is is that there are so many people that
15:57are listening that are in the same type
16:00of situation where they’re they’re
16:03wanting to start up they want to get it
16:05to a certain point where they can
16:06transition from let’s say working from
16:08someone else and and then being able to
16:11sort of do it full time and yet they
16:13don’t want to they either a don’t have a
16:15lot of resources to put behind it or
16:17they don’t want to until they see some
16:19type of results so so talk to us a
16:21little bit about you know some of the
16:23other challenges that you faced in terms
16:25of starting up this company
16:26bootstrapping because you know it is a
16:28sad business and you’re here you are
16:30you’re bootstrapping in the beginning
16:31you’re not taking on additional funding
16:33you’re not you’re not going on
16:35Kickstarter you’re not going on
16:36IndieGoGo you’re not taking money from
16:38you know from other investors talk to
16:42other people about what they can do to
16:44do their own bootstrapping until they
16:46get to that point and talk to them a
16:49little bit about some of your challenges
16:50because maybe it’ll help them in sort of
16:53getting over the hump while they’re sort
16:55of going through their growing pains and
16:57their challenges yeah let’s say the
16:58number one thing is just to have a
17:00product that you can sell on day one the
17:04most common mistake that I see from
17:06people is they’re spending six months or
17:09a year building something that they you
17:12know they’re not even sure whether
17:13whether people are going to buy like if
17:15you can try to pre-sell your solution
17:18you know a lot of people are running
17:21blogs and stuff like that but you know
17:23if you’re bootstrapping just make sure
17:25that you have something that you can
17:27sell like try to get revenue as soon as
17:30possible from day one because revenue
17:32and cash will really solve all of your
17:34problems it will allow you to hire
17:36people it will allow you to run
17:39advertisements it will allow you to
17:41quit your job and focus full-time on
17:43your business so has a bootstrapper I
17:46think you’re your number one goal really
17:48is is to bring in cash right away and
17:51make sure that you can focus full-time
17:53on the business from day one so that
17:56would that would be my advice and the
17:58first two businesses that we ran we
18:00couldn’t charge any money we were
18:03relying on acquiring all these users
18:05making pennies on the dollars and hoping
18:08that in 23 years the the ad revenue
18:11would be enough to sustain us whereas
18:14the third and fourth business we were
18:17selling a product directly and it was
18:20much more easier to scale a business
18:23when you have actual cash flow coming in
18:25the door you always have to look at the
18:27people behind the company as well as
18:29somebody who has a decent product it
18:31almost seems like it’s generating leads
18:33and creating content marketing and
18:34digital marketing for you but maybe talk
18:37to us about that and then how other
18:40people can start generating their own
18:42cash in their own products and services
18:44by by doing some of the same type of
18:46things yeah so sox9 was huge for us we
18:49actually kind of started that before
18:51snappa because we realized that there
18:54was this new trend happening where these
18:57you know amazing photographers were
18:59basically sharing their photos for free
19:02and donating them to Creative Commons
19:04and so we thought there was a big
19:06opportunity to curate and create a you
19:09know a site where you know we can
19:12release some of these amazing photos and
19:15what happened was you know the site just
19:18got super popular and you know started
19:20generating a lot of traffic and so as
19:23you can imagine a lot of the people who
19:25are downloading photos from stock snap
19:27are actually the same people that would
19:29get a lot of value from snappa and so we
19:32essentially started you know cross
19:35promoting the product right and so that
19:39was a huge advantage for us and like he
19:43said for someone who’s developing
19:45products having any sort of audience is
19:48a huge plus and so yeah so anyone who’s
19:52selling whether it’s software error
19:55products or anything like that you know
19:57I encourage people to think about you
20:00know how could I build an audience of
20:02people that would want this product and
20:05maybe even think about you know what
20:08what kind of like almost like side
20:10project or side marketing could i create
20:12maybe like a free resource that i can
20:16then funnel people into my main product
20:19which i think is awesome and i think
20:22that given the fact that you know for
20:24example there’s a lot of people out
20:25there that are saying to themselves you
20:27know what what kind of ideas what kind
20:29of products are solutions or services
20:32can i can i offer and you know i’m
20:34thinking to myself there’s so many
20:36different websites out there for example
20:38that that relate to photos and so you
20:42know you might have someone who’s saying
20:43to themselves gee I’d love to do photos
20:45or I’d love to do whatever but there’s
20:48just so much competition out there that
20:50it just seems so overwhelming so how was
20:53it that you were able to sort of get
20:54over that hump and say to yourself you
20:57know we can actually make it happen was
20:59it was it because you were actually
21:00looking at it as a generator as a lead
21:03generator into snappa and that’s how you
21:06were able to look at it or what what
21:08made you what was it that said to you
21:10hey we can we can we can make this
21:12happen to you know pictures of all
21:14things photos which seems to be a pretty
21:16crowded space so we we actually kind of
21:19you know we initially had this idea for
21:22snappa before we started really building
21:26stock snap and so it was there was two
21:29things number one like I said this was a
21:32you know their stock photos sites have
21:34been around for ages right but they’ve
21:36always had those like really cheesy
21:39prototypical like people shaking hands
21:42and the stock photos have just been
21:44awful and so you know if you look at the
21:46stock photos that we have on our site
21:48they look very natural they look like
21:50normal photos they’re they’re not cheesy
21:52and so I yeah and and beautiful and so
21:55at the time that was actually really
21:56knew right like most of photo sites
21:59didn’t look like that so you know as
22:00much as you know I agree that yeah there
22:03are so many stock photo sites or what
22:05have you but ours was really it was
22:07very different and so that’s a piece of
22:10advice I would give if there’s there’s
22:11always room in crowded market as long as
22:14you differentiate yourself or come up
22:17with your own unique angle or unique you
22:19know proposition and so for us that was
22:21you know free photos that had no
22:23copyrights of Saudi associated with them
22:25that were beautiful and not cheesy and
22:27now you know searchable there in the
22:29public domain so you can actually use
22:31them and that you were then able to sort
22:33of integrate that with snappa we talked
22:35a little bit about validating the ideas
22:37and different things that you can do in
22:39order to whether it be you’re
22:41bootstrapping you’re doing a be testing
22:43in that regard but but maybe talk to us
22:45a little bit out specifically what
22:47whether it be resources that you’re
22:49using the validate that or ideas that
22:52you can not only let us know that you
22:54did but provide others who also need to
22:57obviously validator their ideas as well
23:00in a more economic way as their starting
23:03up so the way that we approached thing
23:05is so like I said we had socks map which
23:08was generating traffic at the time and
23:10so that’s when we thought okay we have
23:13we have an audience here we have
23:14something that we can work with um so
23:16you know we we didn’t want to repeat
23:19past mistakes so before we even started
23:21writing a line of code for snappa what i
23:23did was i emailed the sum of the
23:26subscribers that were on our mailing
23:28list for stock snap and the first thing
23:31i said was it was just a quick quick
23:33question I said what are using the
23:34photos for and if I were if i recall
23:36correctly about 40 or i think like fifty
23:39percent of them either said social media
23:41or blog and i said perfect that’s the
23:43kind thought that’s the market that
23:45we’re going after so then i took a one
23:47step further and i said i sent out
23:49another email and i was asking if people
23:52would have a skype chat with me and so I
23:55got on skype of the boat I think like 20
23:58people or whatever and I just asked some
24:00questions about you know what is their
24:02current process for creating graphics
24:04you know what tools are they using that
24:08kind of thing really just getting an
24:09idea of whether or not there was any you
24:12know pain points or frustrations and
24:14after talking to them it became clear
24:17that you know this the problem that I
24:19had was was a problem that a lot of
24:21our people had which was they were
24:22either relying on designers that were
24:24taking you know three days to get them a
24:26graphic there were wasting too much time
24:28in Photoshop you know all the other
24:30tools were really slow and clunky and
24:32you know so when I said that we were you
24:35know trying to thinking of solving this
24:37problem they got really excited so at
24:39that point we actually started working
24:41on like a really you know early version
24:44prototype and so mark kind of you know
24:47brought that out as quickly as possible
24:49and you know most people would make this
24:52the mistake of spending a year before
24:54was perfect before releasing it we
24:56literally at least release the beta
25:00version and I think it was like a month
25:02or two months or so i SAT and it was it
25:04was just super simple it was it wasn’t
25:07the greatest school in the world but it
25:08gave us a starting point and so we went
25:10back to those users and their real i
25:13guess is really great you know I wish it
25:16could do this this and this and we felt
25:18really comfortable that we were on to
25:20something and so we polish that initial
25:23beta for another couple months and then
25:25we release our first version and from
25:28the from that first version until now we
25:32improved the tool dramatically and you
25:36know with the first version then have
25:38the image resize I don’t even think we
25:41had templates when we first started out
25:43I don’t even know if you can save it was
25:45really bare bones but we actually
25:47charged for it from day one and I think
25:50we ended up getting like 200 paying
25:52customers and the first month that we
25:54launched with a product that wasn’t
25:56super polished and so again like you
25:59know I really recommend launching as
26:00quickly as you can even if you’re
26:02embarrassed about your product it’s
26:04probably not as bad as you think it is
26:05and then you can just keep keep
26:07improving it from there so do you think
26:09that that’s actually one of the most
26:11common mistakes that that startups or
26:13entrepreneurs or students that are
26:15interested in business are making that
26:17there that they’re delaying you know
26:19putting the product out there that’s
26:21actually preventing them from their
26:22success I mean are there other things
26:24that that they’re doing that you find
26:28are also other common mistakes that you
26:30can talk to us about yeah a hundred
26:32percent like I said I mean I
26:33have I have friends who are always in
26:36the idea sager they’re they’re always
26:38two months away from launching and you
26:40know not to be like condescending but
26:43it’s like four years later they still
26:44haven’t put out a they haven’t put out
26:46anything and I always tell them like
26:47dude just launched something put
26:49something out there you can make it
26:50better later like and I made this exact
26:53mistake like the with with our dating
26:55website I mean it took us six months to
26:57build the damn thing and then another
26:59six months to realize that you know it
27:02wasn’t going anywhere that was that was
27:04like a year wasted the wood and so and
27:07and the the reality is like
27:10entrepreneurship is hard I mean it took
27:12you know it took us like four years to
27:14kind of get to where we are and so I
27:16think the shorter you can make that
27:19learning curve the better and so yeah I
27:22think I think one of the worst mistake
27:25is just taking too long and just not
27:27validating quick enough so you know that
27:30kind of gets me into the proper mindset
27:31to actually deal with some of these
27:33daily challenges that you’re going to
27:36face obviously as an entrepreneur as a
27:38business owner and even someone who
27:40nails on their fourth business so can
27:42you give us some of the essential
27:44understandings that entrepreneurs
27:46students need to sort of have in order
27:48to get into that that proper mindset so
27:51that they can sort of build up that that
27:54you know that fortitude so to speak in
27:56and what they’re going to face with
27:57these types of daily challenges because
27:59you know it’s not for the faint at heart
28:01and and so but but coming from someone
28:04who’s been through it already four
28:05different times I think is going to be
28:08is going to be big to to the audience
28:10yeah I have a couple thoughts on that so
28:12number one and I kind of mentioned this
28:14earlier which is when you’re getting
28:16into entrepreneurship understand that
28:18you’re getting into the long game all
28:20right um what’s the what’s the code
28:24there it only takes 10 years to be an
28:26overnight success or something like that
28:28right and that couldn’t be more true i
28:30mean even like super successful
28:32companies like Facebook you know it
28:34wasn’t wasn’t built overnight so I think
28:38as soon as you recognize that this is
28:40going to be you know if you’re starting
28:42a company you’re you know you’re going
28:44to be dedicating the next five years
28:46least to making this happen and now
28:48assuming i’m not saying spend five years
28:51on something that’s not working but you
28:53know to get a business to you know a
28:55million plus i can take five years or so
28:57the other thing I would say is that you
29:00know that one of my issues early on was
29:03like when we would get to you know 5,000
29:06a month in revenue I would say you know
29:08once once we get to once we build this
29:10feature or once we get to this level or
29:12once once we do this like this is going
29:15to be awesome we’re going to be there
29:17the reality is that doesn’t happen every
29:21every budget we hit one milestone it’s
29:23like all right well now we got to get
29:25this done we got to this feature oh we
29:27got a hit you know this goal and and
29:29reminds me you know it kind of reminds
29:31me of my sixteen-year-old because you
29:33know hey I can’t wait till I’m 16 and I
29:35drive a car hey I can’t wait till I’m 18
29:37I can vote hey I can’t wait till I’m 21
29:39so I can go out to the club’s I can’t
29:42wait you know to graduate college so I
29:43can get my first job right to me it’s a
29:45journey as opposed to with that there’s
29:47a difference between the journey and the
29:48destination and that’s I think what I’m
29:50hearing from you is well correct yeah
29:52one hundred percent so I was just going
29:54to say like you know entrepreneurship
29:56really is about the journey you know
29:59once you hit you know twenty Kay a month
30:01or a million bucks a year there’s always
30:04going to be a new challenge a new hurdle
30:06and if you you know if you can’t learn
30:08to appreciate that the process of
30:11getting there and you know enjoying it
30:14you know taking it day by day that’s
30:15something that I kind of struggle with
30:17with early on was I was always like
30:19hoping for that next thing or I can’t
30:21wait till we hit this and nowadays you
30:23know my mindset is completely different
30:25at all right you know this is kind of my
30:27goal you know this is what I want to
30:29accomplish today this is what I you know
30:31want to accomplish the next you know
30:32three months you know if we hit this
30:34great if we don’t we’ll just keep
30:36plugging away and whatever happens
30:37happens you know I just I just put in my
30:40my best effort you know every day and I
30:42just kind of learned to enjoy the
30:45journey yeah no no that that’s awesome
30:47we talked a little bit about marketing
30:50and how you improved by the time you got
30:52to the third company and we talked a
30:54little bit about the importance of sales
30:55and those key metrics and validating the
30:58idea
30:59and and sort of not delaying and sort of
31:01putting something out there and that
31:03kind of brings me to your customer
31:05service first I’ll make a comment then I
31:06have a question as far as customer
31:08service goes that’s also critical and
31:10very very important because on the
31:12flipside of sales and marketing is
31:14quality assurance and maintaining your
31:16customers are there things that you
31:18might not be personally as good at that
31:22you actually delegate where you realize
31:24that hey you know you can’t be all
31:26things to all people and and sort of
31:28what did you do in that regard because
31:30sometimes like you you have a partner
31:32you have a co-founder and sometimes
31:34people bring on other people so I don’t
31:37know if Mark or some of the other
31:39vendors that you bring in have other
31:41skill sets but what have you found that
31:43maybe you’re not as good at that you’ve
31:45sort of struggled with in sort of having
31:48to delegate or not not being able to
31:50just rely on yourself but that you have
31:52to rely on other yeah so mark and i’s
31:54partnership has been really successful
31:56because we have very complementary skill
31:59sets and we really trust each other to
32:03you know capitalize it and and you know
32:06build on those drinks and we kind of
32:08stay out of each other’s way but
32:10collaborate really well so mark is a
32:12technical guy he you know he’s are
32:16either CTO he built the the initial
32:19version of the product and obviously
32:21still develops it to this day whereas
32:23I’ve been focusing a hundred percent on
32:26the business side of things in the
32:27marketing and it’s worked really well so
32:30you know my focus is just a hundred
32:34percent on growing the business and his
32:36focus is you know building making a
32:38kick-ass product and we trust each other
32:40to do that so in in the early days it
32:44was really just the two of us and so you
32:48know my strength has always been on the
32:51growing the business the marketing side
32:53and the the more time that I can spend
32:56there is the better and so as we made
32:58more money we you know we’ve obviously
33:01just constantly reinvesting that into
33:05the business and so we hired you know as
33:07soon as we could we hired a full-time
33:09graphic designer to create awesome
33:11templates for our customers
33:13we hired just an awesome developer
33:16Michael who’s who’s building out
33:18features we’re working with a Content
33:22marketer now who’s who’s creating
33:23content for a blog and so you know that
33:26gives me the opportunity to really focus
33:30on you know starting marketing
33:32initiatives and testing different
33:34marketing channels and yeah so when you
33:37bring up the customer support I think
33:39that’s really important because as a
33:41founder you know I made a commitment
33:43that I want to do all the customer
33:45support and the early stages of the
33:47business because it has really helped me
33:49understand you know what’s really
33:52important to our customers what features
33:54we really need to prioritize you know
33:57what what what are what their challenges
33:59are and that kind of thing and you know
34:03customer support is super important
34:05because you know ten years ago if you
34:08had a bad experience with a company you
34:10know you maybe tell five people about it
34:13you know your close friends are on the
34:14phone when people have bad experiences
34:16now you know they make a status on
34:19facebook and 500 people hear about it so
34:22if it will be correct yeah yeah so and
34:26and on the flip side if you give someone
34:28a great experience you know they might
34:31you know post on Facebook or you know
34:34email their friends or whatever and so
34:36one of the ways that we you know got a
34:38lot of customers even now is through
34:41word of mouth and it’s because we built
34:43a great product we give good service and
34:45you know a lot of people like our
34:48company and so we want to we you know we
34:50want to keep delivering a great
34:51experiences to our customers yeah no
34:54that’s awesome a few final questions to
34:57sort of bring us more up to speed on
34:59what’s going on today and what’s going
35:01to be in the future for snap and and
35:03that is you know what have you actually
35:05learned in the last three months it’s
35:07always great question to ask somebody
35:09because it lets us know some of the
35:13latest things that they’re thinking
35:14about where their companies at and sort
35:17of where they’re going and I think that
35:19that’s that’s critical you mean what
35:21have I learned personally or whatever
35:23learned about the product are fully
35:25integrated in
35:26terms of your business and of course you
35:28can integrate your own personal life in
35:30there what what have you learned about
35:31whether it be yourself or the company in
35:34terms of what’s been happening over
35:36these last several months so one of the
35:39things that I did over the summer was
35:41you know I really wanted to get a really
35:45good understanding of who our customers
35:47are who’s getting the most you know
35:49value from our tool and so I read a
35:51really good book called lean customer
35:53development by I think it’s Cindy
35:55Alvarez and highly recommended
35:58especially if you’re you know working on
36:00a brand new product and you want to you
36:03know validate it and get some feedback
36:05and so after reading that book you know
36:07I scheduled a whole bunch of calls with
36:09our customers to you know really
36:11understand you know what was the main
36:13value they were getting from the product
36:14you know and feedback in terms of
36:17features and stuff like that and what I
36:19learned was that the number one benefit
36:21that people were getting from snappa was
36:23that it saved them time and and and that
36:25was huge for us because you know we kind
36:28of almost changed our marketing around a
36:31little bit and if you look at our
36:32website now it’s very focused on how our
36:36product saves time because that’s really
36:39what what what people were striving for
36:41and we also started you know
36:43prioritizing features that save people
36:45time like image resize was was the
36:47biggest one having folders so that was
36:50easier to you know categorize and that
36:53kind of stuff and so you know I’d say
36:55what I learned was reading that book it
36:58kind of gives a really good framework of
37:00how to do customer development you know
37:03asking open-ended questions is a big
37:05thing do you have someone you know would
37:08would you like us to build this feature
37:10everyone’s going to say yes right or
37:13whereas if you ask them you know what
37:16what tools are you currently using or
37:19you know what what is what is currently
37:22frustrating you then it kind of forces
37:25them to to think it’s not just a you
37:28know agreeing yes or no and that kind of
37:31stuff so I got a you know a lot of value
37:34out of doing that ya know that that
37:36that’s great and and you know just as
37:38you were talking
37:40and saying about how you revamped your
37:42website you know I noticed that not only
37:44your affiliate program but in terms of
37:47all your various other distribution
37:49channels in terms of other maybe more
37:52non-traditional ways to sort of bring
37:54sales and to develop maybe just quickly
37:56talk to us about what you’ve been able
37:58to do in that area because i think it’s
38:00not only creative i think it’s it’s
38:02something that other people it will
38:03resonate with them to get them starting
38:06to think about how they’re going to be
38:08able to sort of generate that cash flow
38:10on day one yeah so i basically have a i
38:14call it my girl spreadsheet and it’s
38:16just a huge huge list of you know
38:19marketing initiatives or kind of tactics
38:22or things we want to try and essentially
38:24what what i do is i kind of prioritize
38:26them based on you know what what impact
38:29it could have you know likeliness to
38:32work and that sort of thing if you feel
38:35google like shaun ellis growth framework
38:38or pi framework or whatever he calls it
38:40that’s kind of what i do and so like I
38:42said you know what I found you know the
38:44most valuable use of my time is growing
38:47the business and so essentially you know
38:49I’m just always trying you know new
38:51things and seeing what works and when I
38:54find something that works we double down
38:55on it so the newest thing for us is this
38:59affiliate program and so you know we get
39:01a lot of emails from people asking if we
39:04had an affiliate program and you know
39:06the you know the more positive feedback
39:09that we get about the product we thought
39:12this could be a really good channel
39:13because there’s just so many people that
39:15could benefit from from snappa now and I
39:18think that you know it’s good to be able
39:20to you know compensate people for to
39:24help us you know spread the message and
39:27partner with us the other thing that
39:29that worked really well for us lately
39:30has been partnerships so you know we did
39:33a co-promotion with leadpages we just
39:36recently did a co-promotion with suma me
39:38and that’s been really well so if you
39:40can you know do any sort of promotions
39:42where you can tap into someone else’s
39:44audience and get exposed to people who
39:47haven’t heard of you yet I think that’s
39:48a really great way to you know build
39:51awareness and get more leads
39:53coming into your funnel yeah awesome
39:55awesome advice for the audience we thank
39:58you so much for that you know before we
40:00get into this this last round it’s
40:02called fastpitch Mitchell Chad Road calm
40:05/ book for books audio book guess
40:08recommendations and the books that I
40:11read to start off each day sponsors are
40:15fastpitch my book club recommendations
40:17that get Mitchell Chad Road calm / books
40:20to see more of my recommendations and
40:23recommendation of our guests just go to
40:25Mitchell Chad Road calm / books it’s
40:28your number one resource for book
40:30reviews and recommendations at the name
40:32of that book and the author again is
40:34it’s a lean customer development by
40:36cindy l Vera’s perfect that that’s
40:40really awesome because I love books I’m
40:42sure you love books too and and so you
40:44know I think that that’s that’s a great
40:46recommendation what is the best these
40:49are some quick questions that we ask you
40:51real fast just to kind of get a feel for
40:54for you personally that’s business
40:55advice you would actually put right up
40:57there on a billboard yeah well I think
40:59we’ve talked about a quite event in this
41:01interview which was you know valid
41:03validate your ideas before you start
41:06building perfect you know before this
41:08interview I was joking with you saying
41:10that you know I really haven’t found a
41:13very good calendar app and you know
41:16there have been guests before who have
41:18recommended you know google calendar and
41:20you know I’ve tried this and I’ve tried
41:22that and so you know it’s interesting
41:24because you had actually suggested one
41:28to me which I’ve already downloaded as
41:30an extension find it to be very simple
41:32and very easy to use so that kind of
41:34leads me into my next quick question and
41:36that is an app that you use to help you
41:39in business family or life now you can
41:40you can say that one that you provided
41:43to me or you can also give another one
41:45as well one of my favorite tools is
41:47Trello ok yeah it keeps me really
41:51organized I just love how simple how
41:53simple it is so the way I kind of you
41:56know structure it is I just have my my
41:58kind of to do’s and and and certain
42:01goals and stuff like that but yeah it
42:04keeps really organized and do
42:06remember the calendar app that you that
42:07you recommended to me at the calendar
42:09app was kallin Lee and so you know it’s
42:12fantastic if you’re trying to you know
42:14schedule calls with people or book
42:16interviews or what have you it
42:18eliminates this you know needless back
42:20and forth you basically send send
42:22someone the link they click the link it
42:24shows all of your availability they
42:27booked any time and you can specify and
42:29then you both get notified and you know
42:31super simple and they even have like a
42:33free plan yeah which is which is really
42:35awesome you know how about a quote or
42:37mantra that can help us you know whether
42:40you know to be purposeful or practical
42:42in you know we could inspire us motivate
42:44us but but something that know that you
42:47can you can impart I can’t think of one
42:50off the top my head but I think just
42:53daily progress that’s kind of my mantra
42:55is just okay a better day and just you
42:57know work on progress don’t don’t look
42:59out ten years ahead I just just make
43:01sure you you make progress everyday less
43:04than a hundred dollar purchase that has
43:05impacted your life the most ooh less
43:07than hundred us a tough one um but that
43:10but that goes to your bootstrapping you
43:12know that this question directly is
43:14directly related to someone like
43:16yourself who so resourceful who you know
43:19is imparting some of these things on the
43:21audience members who are looking for
43:23those practical advice it’s fun in a
43:26sense but but it also lets people know
43:27that sometimes some of the best things
43:30in life you don’t have to spend a whole
43:32lot of money to get a whole lot so yeah
43:34it’s really that’s really where this
43:35questions coming from well I mean in
43:38reality i mean we started you know all
43:41of our businesses with like you know a
43:43five dollar a month hosting plan and a
43:45computer and an internet connection
43:47right so there you go mean so there you
43:50go a host thing how about that hosted
43:53okay hey listen that sounds that sounds
43:55wonderful and and i think that you know
43:59that that’s a great answer how about a
44:01fun fact about you that maybe not a lot
44:03of people know about but it kind of
44:05pulls them in a little bit and tell them
44:06a little bit more about you personally
44:08I’m a big mama’s boy oh yeah we love
44:11that you know so am I listen you know I
44:14mean it takes one to know one right how
44:16about the worst advice that’s being
44:18given to young
44:19today um I mean the thing that I i think
44:24the the vice that like you need to build
44:27a billion-dollar company right I mean
44:29that this is more prevalent and kind of
44:31like the Silicon Valley culture but I
44:33think so many startups are so focused on
44:37raising money in building pitch decks
44:40and not focus enough on building real
44:42businesses and creating real value for
44:45people ya know that’s that’s very
44:46practical when you think of the word
44:48successful what first name comes to your
44:50mind uh well you know what one of my
44:53favorite entrepreneurs and this is like
44:56really old school but is it Sam Walton
44:58yeah okay yeah his biographies
45:01definitely one of my favorite books and
45:03I just you know really admire what he
45:06did just you know completely building
45:08that from scratch the way he um you know
45:11approached you know his leadership and
45:13the way he treated his employees and his
45:16management team I think he was just
45:18super successful and just a great person
45:20well I’ll tell you what if he was alive
45:22today he would be the wealthiest man in
45:24the world um yep what one thing
45:27contributes most to your success uh
45:29probably hustle just just a willingness
45:33to learn and to keep at it yeah great
45:37what one main processor system whether
45:40it be in business family life do you use
45:42that has helped you the most so like a
45:44process or a system you know we we go
45:46through our everyday and we have certain
45:50processes or systems that we use to help
45:53us be a success yeah so going back to my
45:57my trello recommendation one of the I
46:01guess processes that that I do is I
46:04always try to figure out what three
46:07things I’m going to be working on either
46:10the day before or kind of like the
46:12morning of I used to waste a lot of time
46:15and I was a really kind of unproductive
46:17person so now when I sit at my computer
46:20in the morning I know exactly what I’m
46:22going to be working on and I might not
46:24necessarily get those three things on I
46:25might get one or get to but I don’t
46:28waste any time figuring out what i’m
46:30going to be working on
46:32that day and so I think both kind of
46:34like a you know what what I do is
46:36basically like when I finish my work day
46:38I I plan out what I’m going to do the
46:40next day and then at the end of the week
46:42I also kind of do like a weekly thing
46:44like what it what is my kind of top goal
46:46or top priority for for the week coming
46:48up so looking back on all you have done
46:51in business family and life are you
46:53happy with all you’ve done do you have
46:55any regrets uh no III don’t have regrets
46:57because like I said any time we’ve made
47:00mistakes or failed I’ve learned from it
47:02and so there’s no way that anyone is
47:05ever going to you know start an
47:07entrepreneurial career and be perfect
47:09and never make a mistake and so I
47:12certainly didn’t so you know my biggest
47:16goal early on was just being able to
47:18make enough money that I can you know
47:21quit my day job and work on something
47:23that I’m passionate about and that’s
47:25exactly what I’m doing and so from now
47:27on I just want to continue making great
47:30products and create value for the world
47:32and you know just do my thing our
47:34wrap-up round Mitchell Chad row.com /
47:38photos for all your graphic design needs
47:43and Christopher can you tell everybody
47:45how we’re going to keep in contact with
47:47you yeah you guys can follow me at on
47:50twitter my handle is at sea gimmer and
47:54if anyone wants to contact me directly
47:56it’s christopher at snap at i/o thank
47:59you so very much for coming on to listen
48:00to a podcast in the mitchell chad rose
48:02show and we just want to thank you very
48:04much again and we’re really looking
48:06forward to seeing all the progress that
48:09not only are you making personally but
48:11of course in your business as well so
48:13thanks again and we look forward to
48:15hearing from you yeah thanks for having
48:17me hey take care be good now I’ll back
48:19in closing let me have for my listeners
48:21helpers please subscribe to my email
48:23list at Mitchell Chad road calm / sign
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48:29transcripts my ebook 30 tools to start
48:32up where I talk about these free
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48:41just by signing up at mitchell chad road
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49:25iTunes until next time
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