The Post Entrepreneur, Educator, Advisor, Investor, John Richards, Startup Ignition, Show 026 was first published on mitchellchadrow.com
Startup Bootcamp for Entrepreneurs
0:00you’re listening to the listen up show
0:01dart of entrepreneur podcast I’m
0:03Mitchell Chad row your host today with
0:05John Richard when our show 026 friend is
0:12your business it’s your family that
0:14you’re like let’s get started John is an
0:17entrepreneur he’s an educator and
0:19advisor and investor he’s really a
0:22connector of people he’s actually been
0:24called The Godfather of utah’s startup
0:27scene he helps others succeed he’s been
0:30called tenacious and he currently is the
0:32co-founder of startup ignition with his
0:36son Tyler please sign up to my email
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1:15chad road calm / sign up now enjoy the
1:19show so in 1994 in those early days of
1:25the internet john actually had a print
1:27business he moved his yellow pages print
1:30business onto the internet and his
1:32business was actually purchased by
1:34infospace which he worked until 2001 and
1:37then he’d actually taught at Brigham
1:39Young University he became a professor
1:42of entrepreneurship and started pursuing
1:44angel investing which we’ll talk to him
1:47in today’s show what will learn about
1:49his company his startup which is an
1:51entrepreneurship boot camp will also
1:54talk to him about that as well John
1:56actually is a founder and a director of
1:59the center for entrepreneurship and
2:01technology at Brigham Young University
2:02so John it’s wonderful to have you on
2:06today’s show we’re really excited great
2:09thanks Mitchell is great to be here can
2:10you tell us one thing that contributes
2:13most to your success well I think I
2:16think it has it’s a combination of
2:18different factors I think ambition is
2:21part of it desire to want to succeed and
2:25grow and build things and I think
2:26inherent in every entrepreneur is a
2:29desire to build and grow the actual
2:31climb up the mountain is more
2:33interesting exciting actually arriving
2:35at the top which is interesting I think
2:38that’s kind of what drives a lot of
2:40entrepreneurs and I think that’s part of
2:42what drives me well you look at when you
2:44look at the businesses and their startup
2:46in the first 30 days a lot of people
2:48think that you need a lot of capital but
2:50it’s really the opposite can you talk to
2:53the young entrepreneurs and the new
2:54startups out there with what they
2:56actually need those first 30 days and
2:59how you really need little capital get
3:01started or to move to the next step yes
3:04actually if you’re going to pursue a
3:06there’s you know let’s bifurcate
3:09entrepreneurship of the two types of
3:10ventures there can be a lifestyle or
3:12small business that really needs to go
3:15out and get customers right away because
3:16external capital is probably not going
3:18to be available and they need to get
3:20customers right away and get them pain
3:22in order to supply the cash flow to make
3:24the company go and then then there’s
3:27scalable ventures or companies that may
3:29have a big vision and and be more of a
3:33scalable nature those tend to have
3:35longer runway needs in terms of capital
3:37so how do you get the capital to raise
3:39for to make the company go and a lot of
3:42people think you need to rush out and
3:44get that capital but actually what you
3:46need to do is you need to validate your
3:48business model so that you can raise the
3:50capital properly matter of fact getting
3:53capital too early and in too much of a
3:55quantity can actually derail a venture
3:59by allowing the entrepreneurs to persist
4:03in their errors and what I mean by that
4:05is if you take capital from an investor
4:08too early an adventure and you haven’t
4:11figured out your business model you are
4:13now beholden to what you committed and
4:15promised to that investor and when the
4:17market starts telling you that you’re
4:19wrong instead of pivoting and changing
4:21you will persist and continue trying to
4:24force the square peg into the round hole
4:25and not
4:27the market and instead try to fulfill
4:29the commitment and promise you made from
4:32taking the capital and then what you end
4:34up doing is actually burning through the
4:36capital till there’s nothing left and
4:38it’s completely self-defeating that’s
4:41kind of what’s net by that our startup
4:43around for all your hosting needs head
4:46on over to Mitchell Chad Road calm /
4:49hosting Mitchell Chad road calm flash
4:51hosting for all your web hosting need
4:54who do you use to host this website and
4:56I know that that sometimes those first
4:5930 days are critical I mean I heard you
5:02mention you know figure out what your
5:04business model is pivot you know make
5:06those necessary changes you want to
5:09validate your business model but but how
5:11do you how do you sort of begin to do
5:14that I mean obviously sales is where
5:16it’s at sort of building that client
5:18base so what are you actually in your
5:21you know and what will get to your boot
5:24camp and a little bit but what do you
5:25tell or teach your students in those
5:28first 30 days in terms of how to how to
5:32build that that sales base and that
5:34client base and how to focus on that
5:36well let’s go back and even focus on the
5:40idea itself one of the most important
5:43books on ideation and and venture ideas
5:47is a book called the new business road
5:50test by John Mullins and the thesis
5:53behind that book is that most businesses
5:55should have never been started pursued
5:57because they’re simply bad ideas and he
6:00has a lot of work around that topic in
6:04that and it and that’s correct you need
6:07to first be a great problem hunter
6:09you’re seeking for problems that you’re
6:11going to solve and then you have a
6:13problem solution set so the problem is
6:16the solution is dot dot dot and then
6:19looking at that problem solution set and
6:22if you were to then take it to the next
6:24level you’re trying to look at what kind
6:27of company would this make what would be
6:28the services of it is it a really worthy
6:31idea for you to spend your time even
6:34trying to validate and ultimately get
6:36into trying to attempt to sell it so
6:39really it
6:40starts with the idea and is the idea
6:43worthy of actually doing a business
6:46model validation exercise on and the
6:48answer is that most ideas are not worthy
6:51but many many entrepreneurs take one of
6:54their first ideas and then just think
6:58that’s the end-all be-all and everybody
7:00in the world thinks like them so it’s a
7:02wonderful idea they only go to you know
7:04four or five trusted local people like
7:06their mother and their mother of course
7:08tells them it’s a great idea and then
7:10they go pursue the idea and it really is
7:13an idea that should have never been
7:14pursued in the first place so that we
7:16got to get over that hump first but as
7:18does that make sense it does and it’s
7:22almost like slow and steady wins the
7:23race and and it sounds as if you know
7:26you want to validate your idea with more
7:29than just your your core three or four
7:31or five or six or seven friends and
7:33family that are close to you and so the
7:35idea becomes okay now we’re building out
7:38and how do you economically do that as
7:41you you know as you continue to pivot
7:43and decide okay which ideas out of all
7:46of these am I going to then decide to
7:48sort of go forth with right so I guess
7:51that’s that that’s that’s a critical
7:52point as well yes and and it doesn’t
7:56take a lot of money that’s the great
7:57news to figure out whether an idea is
7:59worthy to do a full classic lean startup
8:03business model validation process with
8:05and the entire process of validating a
8:09business model doesn’t take a lot of
8:10time and doesn’t take a lot of money and
8:12those are the two most precious
8:14commodities with time be number one we
8:17don’t want to burn and waste a lot of
8:18time on bad ideas we don’t also want to
8:20burn and waste a lot of time on trying
8:24to make a business model work that’s not
8:26going to work and so what we want to do
8:28is quickly find those things out and one
8:32of the greatest innovations of the last
8:33decade and entrepreneurship is that we
8:36now have a framework with the Lean
8:38Startup model where we can fail faster
8:42and that’s kind of a funny statement but
8:45the reality is we’re not changing the
8:46failure rate of humans pursuing business
8:49ideas the failure rate is still the same
8:51what we’re trying to do is push all the
8:54failure to the very very early stage and
8:58make it cheap and inexpensive and quick
9:00to fail so we might fail 30 times before
9:04we arrive at a fantastic business that
9:06makes us wealthy and creates jobs and
9:09changes society with a great product or
9:11service but what we don’t want to do is
9:13have the second or third iteration of
9:16that be two years down the road we want
9:18to do all 29 of the failures in the
9:21first couple months or first you know
9:24two three four months of our adventure
9:27and arrive at that winning business
9:28model much faster than in the past
9:30that’s really in essence what’s
9:33happening in today’s entrepreneurs that
9:35are practicing great entrepreneurship is
9:38that they’re failing fast and getting to
9:40the winning business model quickly you
9:42know it’s interesting that you mentioned
9:44about you know failing the failing
9:46faster and I guess if you’re going to do
9:49that doing that in the first 30 to 60
9:51days is better like you indicated
9:53getting all those reiterations and
9:55pivoting early on so that you’re not
9:57putting a lot of resources into it you
9:59know when you go forward but you know
10:01there’s so much you know people need
10:04that encouragement in those first 30 or
10:0660 days and so they think that by
10:08failing that that’s going to somehow
10:10discourage them but I think what I hear
10:12you saying is that that’s actually a
10:14blessing in disguise because it’s going
10:16to help you in the long term and that
10:18you should obviously keep your momentum
10:20up in your energy level and being
10:22positive throughout until you validate
10:25the idea let me tell you a three-week
10:27story just real quickly so there were
10:29four entrepreneurs that have the idea of
10:32fixing the wait time at family doctor
10:36offices the family doctors don’t like it
10:39the consumers don’t like it when you
10:40arrive for a two o’clock appointment you
10:42don’t see the doctor till three-thirty
10:43right that’s right that’s not fun for
10:46anyone so they indeed the consumer does
10:50problem they validated that the doctors
10:52don’t like it they think it’s bad
10:53customer service which is good sometimes
10:56you might find out that in a two-sided
10:58market like that that one of the sides
11:00doesn’t really think it’s a problem and
11:02they want to keep it the same which
11:03that’s all another story but in this
11:05case they went out and they had
11:08solution based on text SMS text solution
11:11and they went out and their very first
11:14time they went out and talked to 20
11:16family doctors with one-on-one
11:18interviews and maybe this is just a
11:21week’s time and all 20 hated their first
11:25idea really didn’t like it said now
11:27would never buy it never work I wouldn’t
11:29put that in my practice and then they
11:32when that happened you think well that’s
11:35discouraging but it’s not it’s like what
11:37you’re saying Mitchell is that the
11:40minute that that customer the one is
11:43going to be paying you money the doctor
11:45and his family practice planet that when
11:49they start saying no I don’t like that
11:51then your next question is well what
11:53would you like what it is this problem a
11:55big problem how would you solve that
11:57problem what would you like to see it be
11:59like and that’s what they did to ask
12:00those questions and they got
12:01instructions from the brains of their
12:03customers of saying here’s what I want
12:06you to build for me and here’s how I’ll
12:08pay for it who’s go do that and so over
12:10a period of the next three weeks after
12:13that they went back two more times to 10
12:15of the 20 doctors with you know
12:18significantly pivoted ideas and and
12:21business models and they went there and
12:23eventually ended up after just three
12:25weeks time with Ken of the doctors all
12:29saying that they had taken the number 20
12:31down to 10 that they went back to
12:33multiple times and the 10 doctors by the
12:36last iteration said all terms that I
12:40love that idea and for them asked if
12:42they could invest not just be a customer
12:45and that happened in three week time
12:47period but that’s really wonderful and I
12:50mean there’s a lot of value bombs and
12:51what you just said I mean I like the
12:53whole idea about getting into the
12:55customers head and asking the customer
12:57so how would you like to solve it or
13:01what would you like to see in this
13:03particular type of idea solution let me
13:06ask you when i introduced you i really
13:08didn’t give you do i mean obviously
13:10you’ve been you’ve been investing as an
13:12angel and and
13:14mentor and an educator for 20-plus years
13:17so can you tell us a little bit more
13:19about your personal story I mean maybe
13:22delve a little deeper into your
13:23background things that I didn’t really
13:25touch on in terms of how you’re actually
13:27helping people today sure so well it’s
13:31just quickly on my background so i was i
13:32left the 1980s I left college right
13:37after the divestiture the ATT the
13:39biggest corporation the world at the
13:41time that the federal government broke
13:42into multiple parts have broke it into
13:44eight separate companies that left a lot
13:46of room for opportunity to compete
13:48against different pieces of it and one
13:50of the pieces was yellow pages so I went
13:52into the yellow pages arena and from the
13:56mid to late 80s through the early 90s
13:59the print yellowpages industry was on
14:01fire very lucrative and a lot of ability
14:04to go beat the big phone company in
14:08doing yellow pages so did that we had a
14:11lot of success we innovated a lot of
14:13interesting things in the print property
14:15went for just lacking on yellow paper to
14:17full color add again skipping production
14:21processes using technologies so that it
14:24became very inexpensive two brigades
14:25which was all great and then like as you
14:29mentioned in 94 I was exposed to the
14:31internet for the first time and realized
14:32that this was gonna be a threat to the
14:34print product and so in 95 I launched
14:38the first-ever yellow pages coming from
14:40a print publisher and to fast forward
14:44lots of larger companies were interested
14:47in what I was doing one of them beat
14:48Microsoft and some folks from Microsoft
14:51left Microsoft while I was talking to
14:53Microsoft and and we got together and
14:56infospace was a company that was born
14:58from that which became a real leader in
15:00online yellow pages and just generally
15:02in the search industry and went public
15:04in 1998 growing from the original four
15:07of us to eventually about 1,500
15:11employees and then I read tired from
15:14there in 2001 and my alma mater BYU
15:17brigham young university of utah called
15:19me up and invited become become a
15:21professor of entrepreneurship which i
15:23eventually did and became very involved
15:26as an angel
15:27Vester in the ecosystem of the
15:29Intermountain West in Utah would still
15:31do my ties up to Seattle where I was
15:33doing my yellowpages activity and then
15:35over the 2000s very involved in just the
15:40mentor ecosystem kind of in Silicon
15:42Valley seattle and the utah market and
15:45then a lot of what I’ve done besides is
15:50started the first-ever accelerator in
15:53Utah patterned after techstars in
15:55Boulder Colorado when y combinator and
15:58text are started up I was fascinated by
15:59them so we started one and it’s been
16:01consistently it’s called boom startup
16:04and it’s been consistently ranked in the
16:05top 15 accelerators I sold out of that
16:08to my partner a couple years ago when I
16:10joined Google I took a little side trip
16:13and became head of Google in the state
16:15of Utah for a couple years as Google
16:18brought Google Fiber to the utah market
16:23delivering gigabit internet so I did
16:25that and then I left there just a couple
16:28years ago I started startup ignition
16:30which is an entreprenuer mood camp
16:33industry is on fire coding boot camps
16:36are all over the world now were you in
16:3712 weeks you can go from scratch to
16:39become a software engineer and so the
16:42idea what we’re doing to start a
16:44petition is if you don’t know a lot
16:46about how to start up a company come in
16:48and in 12 we do a 13 week program you
16:51can really master today’s latest skills
16:55and doing startups and lean startup and
16:58really get a company going properly and
17:00avoid a significant amount of mistakes
17:02there’s so many expensive mistakes you
17:04can make as an early stage entrepreneur
17:06and avoiding them is really important
17:09you want to avoid them all but if you
17:11can avoid a significant percentage us to
17:12save you a lot of time and money and
17:14then just making end due in tonight
17:15things so that isn’t that shows me
17:17bringing me up to this so I’m an active
17:20mentor and and instructor for
17:25entrepreneurs and just love helping them
17:27we charge is low fees we possibly can to
17:29be in the boot camp just to make it
17:30worthwhile for everybody and then I’m an
17:33active I do about four to six angel
17:35investments a year and that’s me yeah no
17:39I mean you
17:40packed a whole lot in into that let me
17:42let me break that down a little bit so
17:44you mentioned coding boot camp I know
17:46that you were a backer in your your son
17:49Tyler’s business called dev mountain and
17:52that’s obviously a coding boot camp I
17:54know you mentioned whom startup which is
17:57really more of like a mentorship boot
17:59camp and now told us a little bit about
18:01the the mission and the vision for your
18:04current your current endeavor which is
18:07startup ignition and you also started
18:10talking to us about some common problems
18:12that startups face so what are some of
18:16the startup ignition things that you
18:18help to resolve some of these issues and
18:21problems that you actually teach to the
18:23entrepreneurs in the boot camp well
18:25let’s start at the very beginning
18:26there’s a massive amount of problems in
18:30just founding a company and choosing
18:32your founders and how you break out the
18:34equity and the document to use I heard
18:37one of your sponsors and and you
18:40involved with the sponsor that helps
18:41people set up companies right a lot of
18:43entrepreneurs try to become their own
18:45lawyer you know I don’t my one of my
18:48co-founders both my co-founders insert
18:50conditioner my two sons one as a lawyer
18:52one is Tyler who you mentioned that
18:54co-founded dead mountain a great coding
18:57boot camp but you know I I like to avoid
19:01lawyers as much as possible like anybody
19:03else but it’s a real estate to avoid
19:05good legal help and doing things right
19:08with the right paperwork at the
19:10beginning of doing a company because the
19:14only times and real problems I’ve seen
19:16um great entrepreneurs you into troubles
19:19actually with co-founders and what
19:20happens because you you start a company
19:22and you decided co-founders are and you
19:25set the percentages on day one and you
19:27haven’t really done anything and over
19:29the next few months you start
19:30discovering who’s really contribute what
19:32who’s really participate in this thing
19:35and who’s really in it for the long haul
19:37and you can have a lot of issues and
19:40consternation her because of not
19:43understanding exactly how things were
19:44going to play out and so one of the
19:46things you really want to make sure is
19:48that they actually you know start a
19:51company properly and get the right
19:52paperwork in
19:53ways to protect each founder from other
19:56founders like you know you making sure
19:58that you have founder vesting and if you
20:00do founder vesting make sure you do rule
20:0383 be election so you don’t mess up your
20:05taxes in case you successful and all
20:09these issues that play all sorts of
20:11issues that play out like that and we
20:14make sure that they you know do it right
20:16if they’re really going to be a
20:17hard-charging 100 million dollar venture
20:21and that’s where they tend to go and
20:23that’s where they set from day one maybe
20:26they just need to jump right to a
20:27Delaware c-corporation Allen tell the
20:29investment community that they’re
20:31serious and that’s who they are if
20:32they’re not have a vision and a much
20:34smaller vision while staying more local
20:36then they can register in their own
20:38state all sorts of issues like that so I
20:40could go on and on I don’t want to blow
20:42the audience with all yeah no no
20:43certainly sure because because i know
20:45that in working with your sons there’s
20:48not only issues in terms of you know
20:50equity stake but but actually who’s
20:53running the business who controls you
20:55know what are the different you know
20:57functions that each person handles and
20:59then there’s the issues with like you
21:01know you as dad vs you as as business
21:04boss you know you go home and you kind
21:07of leave that back in the office so
21:08there’s a lot of different dynamics that
21:11are going on and obviously you know you
21:13need to be thinking about them as you
21:15had mentioned yes um actually if you
21:19kind of go google this term the only
21:20unfixable problem at all of
21:22entrepreneurship is done at the
21:24beginning a 50-50 partnership that’s the
21:27worst decision and that founders can
21:29make if you have two or four individuals
21:31starting a company to go 50-50 or 25 25
21:3525 25 is actually least a lot of issues
21:39and problems and companies and and some
21:42of my favorite articles that have titles
21:44like the only wrong answer in deciding
21:46founder ownership is 50-50 that’ll be
21:48the title of an article you might find
21:50on the internet and it is kind of
21:51fascinating to see the problems that
21:54occur at any one in any one calendar
21:57year i’ll have three situations where i
21:59have to mentor through a 50-50 startup
22:03that blows up because of founders
22:06disagree
22:07and the problem is if you have a 50-50
22:10set up and both sides are you know
22:12entrenched the best attorney in the
22:14world the best mentor in the world can’t
22:15help them until one of them is and if
22:18they neither side will give its its
22:21catastrophic you know I’m sure you see a
22:23lot of different types of people coming
22:26to your boot camps at different stages
22:27of their own life so what do you what do
22:30you tell someone who’s let’s say in the
22:32middle of their career they might want
22:34to start something what do you what do
22:36you actually say to them that’s
22:38interesting when you say in the middle
22:39of career I definitely have the opinion
22:41that scared this opinion that the best
22:43time to do a start-up is either you know
22:45when you’re single and young and you’re
22:4724 or later in life when you’re past 45
22:51have built up a nice 401k and you can
22:54use some that money to take a couple
22:55years off and take a real hard run at
22:57entrepreneurship i do try to tell them
22:59part-time entrepreneurship generally
23:02doesn’t work that well parallel
23:05entrepreneurship is tough to where
23:06you’re doing multiple businesses at the
23:09same time because it’s hard to you know
23:12most of the time you need one hundred
23:14and ten percent focus on the venture to
23:16really have a great success it’s hard to
23:19do that part time or when your your
23:21interests are divided but to answer your
23:24question real pointedly it’s it’s not
23:27uncommon that a 36 year old will come to
23:29me and say hey I want to start a company
23:32I hear your guy that helps people I’ve
23:34got this great idea the only problem is
23:37I’ve got four kids my oldest one is 14
23:40and and you know I make one hundred
23:43twenty thousand dollars year my job I
23:45want to quit that job I just need to get
23:48you know replace that income with some
23:50investor money and then I can pursue my
23:52dream and I try to tell them well let me
23:55get this straight so you want to you
23:57know jump off of your 120,000 our job
23:59but have investors allow you to take
24:0110,000 of the company so you’re still
24:03making 120,000 and you also want to have
24:06sixty percent ownership in the venture
24:08that’s not going to happen that’s not
24:11how it works out there I mean if it
24:13worked like that everybody would do that
24:15if everybody could leave their job and
24:17replace the income immediately at the
24:20month or few months of a company and
24:23still have a boatload of the founders
24:25shares then who would not pursue
24:27entrepreneurship right because there
24:28would be nothing to lose and so but
24:31that’s you know investors are not there
24:33to support a lifestyle you know you’ve
24:36got to find a way to get by on a little
24:38income as possible through the stage of
24:40the company and that’s hard to do when
24:42you’re 36 with four kids and the oldest
24:4414 years away from college it’s
24:46definitely challenging people have done
24:48it people make it work somehow find a
24:51way to make it work but it’s obviously
24:53much more challenging that if you’re 24
24:55and single so yeah you know a lot of
24:58people in our audience are young
24:59entrepreneurs they’re going to college
25:02where they’re transitioning from high
25:03school and they’re going into into
25:05college a lot of the local schools like
25:08Drexel University you know the first
25:10college in the nation to start an
25:12entrepreneurial studies course we
25:15actually get a college degree in that
25:16there’s the University of Delaware
25:18obviously you’ve been involved in
25:21bringing um young university so can you
25:24talk a little bit about the role of
25:25higher education in entrepreneurship I
25:28mean obviously you’re you’re
25:29facilitating that with your own company
25:31now startup ignition but but maybe talk
25:34to us a little bit about the role that
25:36you see in this particular space well
25:39higher education or the universities are
25:41very important ecosystems for
25:43entrepreneurship because the number one
25:46thing universities do is they provide
25:48collisions great ideas are very rarely
25:51from one person coming up with an idea
25:54or figuring something out most great
25:56ideas are when multiple ideas that are
26:00pieces of a great idea collide from
26:03people coming together and universities
26:05greatest contribution to society in my
26:08opinion is that it is a melting pot
26:13where people come together and then
26:16those collisions can happen so great
26:18founding teams can form with ideas that
26:21are reformed by multiple ideas crashing
26:24together and that’s really important so
26:27and that’s why if you think about the
26:30greatest companies of today um
26:34you know for Google Microsoft you name
26:36the ones that have prayed some the
26:38greatest fortunes and change our lives
26:39the most we’re all started by those
26:43collisions and you know coming together
26:47in an educational environment and by the
26:49founders coming together in that
26:50environment so that’s really really
26:52important the flip side is that higher
26:55education is unfortunately very poor at
26:59delivering skills based education in
27:01other words the actual classroom work
27:03doesn’t lend itself well to actually
27:06learning skills and so one of the
27:09reasons I’ve gone off campus with
27:11startup ignition and brought to the
27:13outside of the environments because my
27:15own students were telling me why did I
27:17have to matriculate to a university why
27:20did I have to take all the general
27:22education courses and why did I have to
27:24take the the qualifying prerequisite
27:27courses to get into the business school
27:29to take your 400 level entrepreneurship
27:32class why can’t that be available
27:34outside of that because it’s such a
27:35finite group second that qualified and
27:38get up to the 400 level class and it’s
27:41actually kind of interesting because you
27:44have to have really good grades in the
27:46corner level class of the top
27:47universities like BYU or others and but
27:50often the best entrepreneurs are not the
27:52best academic performance and so it’s
27:55kind of a really oxymoronic situation
27:59there on that score so I’m not even sure
28:02exactly what to do about it but what I
28:04did about it is I took what I was doing
28:06for a dozen years and really made a
28:08difference and create a lot of wealth
28:10and a lot of great companies and a lot
28:12of great products and services by
28:13helping students create businesses at a
28:15great university and now I’ve brought it
28:17out to where it’s available to anyone
28:19that could be a great you know
28:21entrepreneur but doesn’t have to feel
28:23that they have to matriculate to
28:25university especially if they’re 40
28:26years old and I’ll start a company you
28:28know you’re not wanting to go back into
28:30a university just to access those kind
28:32of knowledge and information hope I
28:33answer that I think universities are
28:35very important and the shortages that
28:37happen there and young people going to
28:40university the number one reason i would
28:42go to university is to augment my
28:45network and
28:46those collisions I’d oh I wouldn’t go to
28:48a university to gain skill mm-hmm no III
28:51think that that’s that’s a very
28:53practical answer to you know to that and
28:57I know that you know locally there’s so
29:00many schools here on the East Coast and
29:02and and so we’ve spoken to a lot of
29:05these young students who are who are
29:07doing just that you you just started I
29:11just got to say it’s such a great time
29:12so something though your student age you
29:16know even high school but lets you know
29:18University age is just such a perfect
29:20time to start a company and it’s kind of
29:23funny also I’ll make one more time in a
29:25higher education oh gosh that’s ok
29:28that’s fine hey loosen things like that
29:29happen you know they’re all part of the
29:31family you know the podcast is all about
29:33business family and life and our pets
29:35I’m telling you are all part of our our
29:38family isn’t that right John so yeah I
29:41apologize for that well that’s okay what
29:44I was saying is here’s something I found
29:45out a lot of people higher education
29:47don’t like saying it but when i was at
29:50Brigham Young University I saw countless
29:52undergraduate startups so you know
29:55people at her sophomore junior or senior
29:57zhun graduated yet start companies and
30:00be wildly successful one of my last ones
30:02that started in the 2012 when I was
30:05still teaching in three years built the
30:08company sold the snapchat for 54 million
30:10cash okay so and that’s an undergraduate
30:14student and what was that what type of
30:16company was that that was well known
30:19yeah it was called scan SCA n it was a
30:23QR company that had built technology for
30:26QR codes and snapchat later used it for
30:31increasing or decreasing the friction of
30:36signing up for their service and very
30:38interesting but the whole point there is
30:42I probably in my 12 years of teaching at
30:44the university saw undergrad students
30:46innumerable times create great companies
30:49that got great revenues in my time there
30:54the mba students did great work in
30:58entrepreneurship
31:00they failed to launch they actually
31:02didn’t launch and get the company’s
31:04going I don’t I can’t think of one
31:06sitting here in my entire time that when
31:08it passed a year of life and so it’s
31:10kind of interest with apples when you’re
31:12an MBA student you have to go out and
31:13get some work experience in order to
31:15apply for an MBA and come back and get
31:17your MBA but what happens over that is
31:20your risk gene the ability to take on
31:22risk the your approach to risk starts
31:26becoming very cautious and so over time
31:29you diminish your risk taking ability as
31:31an entrepreneur and it’s kind of
31:33fascinating and I’ve just seen this
31:34anecdotally in my experience that the
31:38older person gets and the more work
31:41experience as a working for someone else
31:44their tolerance for risk goes down and
31:48you know it’s interesting because we
31:50talked to all different people in all
31:53different facets so young kids that are
31:55that are obviously in college I
31:57mentioned the question about you know
31:58mid-career and what do they do a lot of
32:01times sometimes that mid-career person
32:03their risk tolerance may or may not
32:04necessarily diminish but because they
32:07have a family because they have children
32:09because they have a spouse and they
32:11realized that they also have to take
32:13those opinions in consideration it might
32:17prevent them from sort of leaping out
32:19you know what I mean and so sometimes
32:20it’s that as well have you had my talk
32:23to have you talked to people older than
32:26you know the young college level that
32:28the mid-career where you know maybe they
32:31want to do it but maybe it’s somebody
32:32else’s spouse knowing that they have
32:35children or other responsibilities and
32:38it doesn’t allow them to kind of leave
32:40you know 100 or 200 or 300 thousand
32:43dollar job yeah I’ve had that happen
32:45I’ve had the case where I invested in
32:49helped raise over seven hundred thousand
32:51dollars for a company one time for a
32:53founder had a great idea and he was
32:54executing really well and but we
32:57investors put on a salary cap on him so
33:00that you know he would only be able to
33:01take out a certain amount of money and i
33:03think it was seventy eight thousand
33:05dollars a year and so we just didn’t
33:08want him you know take it out 120,000
33:1130,000 with our money until the company
33:13shirt
33:13do that so that’s a common thing in
33:15preferred stock agreements is that the
33:17preferred shareholders will put that
33:19kind of salary cap on a founder and so
33:22this is kind of an odd story but the
33:25founder who was executed really well and
33:30it was a great company great cash flow
33:31that was coming up it was just really
33:33exciting for everybody but his wife had
33:36no tolerance for this lifestyle and
33:38literally one time my wife and I went
33:41out to dinner with he and his wife and
33:43his wife just really came down on me for
33:47having that salary cap and I was kind of
33:50kind of entry it got to the point so bad
33:52that we investors bought him out and he
33:54left the company and later the company
33:57went on to have a great exit and great
33:59cash flows you know flashes that was
34:02about 10 years ago now since then they
34:05those two got divorced he just eat
34:06wanted to be an entrepreneur he started
34:08many companies since then he went back
34:10to working for somebody else for a few
34:12years living a life he didn’t want to
34:14live and eventually they divorced
34:15because they were totally compatible in
34:17terms of what he wanted to do with his
34:19career in life and what she wanted as a
34:22spouse so those things are real and they
34:24come up and and it’s important to sort
34:27of talk about that that’s why we also
34:29touch upon those other types of issues
34:31here on the podcast because like you
34:34said it’s it’s it’s it’s real I mean you
34:36know I mean this is not just you know
34:38like I said it’s just not business it’s
34:40family and its life and if it’s
34:42practical this founder got bought out
34:46for about two hundred thousand dollars
34:49and he would have made much much much
34:52more than that if he had stayed in the
34:54company to the exit you know earlier in
34:56one of our podcasts we talked about
34:58crowdfunding and I know earlier we
35:00talked about how you don’t want to take
35:02money too soon or too early but as
35:05crowdfunding whether it be through
35:07Kickstarter becomes more and more
35:09popular and people are trying to to
35:12raise money early as opposed to like you
35:14suggest waiting a little bit i mean i
35:16know that we just recently interviewed a
35:19fella on our podcast chris lynn who has
35:21a you know has a product called flip
35:23wallet that just went to the front page
35:25of product
35:26calm and he’s actually in the process
35:29right now of crowdfunding so what do you
35:31tell people whether it be like him or
35:33other people that are considering
35:35crowdfunding what’s your what’s your
35:38thought process in that whole lean
35:41startup process kind of also touch
35:43touched upon earlier well at first point
35:46out that you know this phenomenon of
35:48tangible physical products now becoming
35:52easier to start than a software company
35:54is fascinating and how Kickstarter and
35:57IndieGoGo and all of those crowdfunding
36:00platforms are basically taking a
36:03physical tangible product through the
36:06lean startup process in a really
36:08accelerated fashion I mean you know 30
36:11years ago the vision was oh I can be in
36:13my garage with my buddy and we can write
36:15a software application and become you
36:18know wildly successful and it’s very low
36:21capital needed up front and you know
36:26that was the you know the great vision
36:28of incredible entrepreneurship right
36:30that that could happen but now with
36:32what’s going on with these crowdfunding
36:35platforms they literally allow somebody
36:38with a physical tangible product to be
36:40able to do that even in greater style
36:43than the old days of software and what I
36:45mean by that is this imagine you know
36:47doing a let’s say is something that
36:49needs injection molding for plastic or
36:51maybe needs Electrical Engineering for a
36:55circuit board oh and then needs firmware
36:59written for that circuit board and all
37:01these complex issues with physical
37:03tangible products hardware consumer
37:05electronics etc it prior to this
37:09phenomenon you would have had to make a
37:12prototype which would have been very
37:14expensive to show investors and get
37:17investment money or capital and somehow
37:20to do if you’re lucky your first
37:22production run of you know five hundred
37:24or a thousand units and just the amount
37:27of capital needed to get to that and how
37:29you would pull that off was very very
37:31difficult challenging but now I can make
37:35a three-minute video for five hundred
37:37dollars cad drawings and I’ll show in a
37:403d
37:40of it say this is the product i want to
37:42build will you preorder this product on
37:45your credit card and there’s no recourse
37:48to you if i don’t come out with the
37:49product will you do that and fund me and
37:51it’s just amazing what’s going on I’ve
37:53had countless students of mine do
37:56Kickstarter projects where they be
37:58incredibly successful I mean literally
38:00within five miles of I’m see right now I
38:02can take those three or four companies
38:04who have raised unbelievable amounts on
38:08Kickstarter and pre-orders for their
38:10tangible product ideas that have gone on
38:12to be very successful cup like one is
38:15you know snap power snap our comms just
38:19an interesting local company to where
38:21I’m at right now that launched and just
38:24went crazy on Kickstarter and you know
38:27they’ve the you know the need for
38:30capitals so low compared to what it
38:32would have been to come out with a
38:33product like that it’s just amazing
38:35stories so what what I think what’s
38:38happening here you’re actually
38:40validating your idea and your business
38:45model and your product all in one swoop
38:49by making a you know a three to five
38:52minute video and put it up on get
38:54starter it’s just fascinating what’s
38:56happening and then of course how do you
38:58argue some if somebody gets six hundred
39:00thousand dollars in pre-orders with you
39:01know 3,000 units sold you that’s kind of
39:06the ultimate invalidation isn’t it you
39:09know it is and you know when we talk
39:11about those first 30 to 60 days it
39:14really is a very economical way like you
39:17said to actually validate that idea and
39:20again if the idea is not perfect it’s
39:23okay because you can you can pivot early
39:25on and it doesn’t cost a whole lot like
39:28you said to put together a video and put
39:30it up there to sort of validate that
39:31product idea so i think that’s that’s
39:33very interesting you know it is the
39:36funny thing is we don’t have a corollary
39:38for it now and software those softwares
39:40now harder the launch than consumer
39:44products because of this if you think
39:47about software we don’t right now i
39:49can’t go up on the indiegogo or
39:51Kickstarter very easily too hey
39:54I want to do a b2b software platform for
39:57XYZ industry and we you please well all
40:02of you in the XYZ industry pre-order my
40:04software tell you what John it sounds
40:06like a good company that you and I can
40:07get involved in going forward because I
40:10think I think we’re on this I think
40:11we’re onto a good idea now we just need
40:13to sort of validate it so that kind of
40:16takes me that kind of takes me into our
40:18next round our fast pitch Mitchell Chad
40:21Road calm / books for books audiobooks
40:25des recommendations and the books that I
40:28read to start off each day sponsors are
40:32fast pitch my book club recommendations
40:35that get Mitchell Chad road calm / books
40:38to see more of my recommendations and
40:40recommendation of our guests just go to
40:42Mitchell Chad Road calm / books it’s
40:45your number one resource for book
40:47reviews and recommendations where we
40:49just ask you some really quick questions
40:51you know it’s supposed to be
40:53light-hearted fun it gets to know you a
40:55little bit better as a person as a
40:57family guy just just in everyday life
40:59and I know John earlier you actually
41:03mentioned John Mullen and talking about
41:05bad ideas i don’t know if that book is
41:07called hard thinking or if he’s written
41:09a few different books but an
41:11inspirational book that you can sort of
41:13go out so our first question here the
41:17best business advice that you would
41:19actually put up on a billboard best
41:22business advice probably i got from my
41:25mentor which is work a few years like
41:28nobody else will live the rest of your
41:31life like nobody else can that helped
41:33explain to me that entrepreneurship is a
41:38finite amount of time of huge sacrifice
41:41and commitment but there is a reward at
41:44the end you know it’s not meant to be
41:46that you’re going to work yourself to
41:47death for forty five straight years of
41:4980 hour weeks but if you do execute
41:52really well for a finite amount of time
41:54three four five six years that it can
41:58bring you independence for perhaps the
42:00rest of your lives know that that’s
42:03that’s terrific you know we mentioned
42:05John molyns book earlier but if you
42:08name an inspirational both whether it be
42:11in business family or life that you can
42:14sort of have people go out there and and
42:16and listen to on inaudible I think that
42:20that would be a big help to them ok well
42:24there’s so many good books I’m not going
42:25to mention the Lean Startup books that
42:27people know like the startup owners
42:28manual all that those are some great
42:29ones out there but early one of the
42:31books that one of the books that maybe
42:33some of your listeners may not know as
42:36well is called the innovators dilemma by
42:39Clayton Christensen and animators
42:41dilemma is years of research looking at
42:45industries and it teaches us how to look
42:48at the cycles of industries and how an
42:51incumbent leader in an industry when
42:54faced with a disruptive innovation
42:56doesn’t know how to manage to that
42:58problem and how the disruptor comes in
43:01and takes the lowest level customers and
43:03over time eventually improves to where
43:06it takes all the customers of the
43:07incumbent and we see this repeated and
43:10in that book called the individuals
43:12dilemma of which there’s now been
43:13sequels to that book but that original
43:16book goes through about 30 different
43:17industries and shows how this happens
43:20and it’s really a dilemma for the
43:22management team of the incumbent but it
43:24ends up being that’s what it was
43:25originally written for is to help the
43:27incumbent management team understand how
43:29to manage to that issue of a disruptive
43:31innovation in their industry but it
43:33actually is it becomes a great primer to
43:36the entrepreneur to understand how to be
43:38a disrupter and how to compete against
43:41the incumbent which is very fascinating
43:44that’s wonderful to really kind of teach
43:47how to compete you know in in business
43:50and in life with your family we’re using
43:52so many different abs so much technology
43:55I know before we kind of jumped on with
43:58our calendaring we use doodle but if you
44:01can but if you can actually recommend a
44:05nap or some type of technology that that
44:08whether it be in business or family or
44:10life I think it would go a long way to
44:13help those those entrepreneurs are
44:15people thinking about becoming
44:17entrepreneurs well I think the full
44:20suite of all the things Google
44:21offers is fantastic but let me hone in
44:24on one some former Googlers left the
44:29company because inside Google is kind of
44:32fascinating they don’t have good task
44:34management software and so and they
44:37don’t use task manager very much and I’m
44:39saying that some tomatoes at Google for
44:40a couple years and some of the Googlers
44:44that left created a sauna asin a oh yeah
44:49calm and I use a sauna in my businesses
44:54as a team collaboration and task
44:59management tool that for me it really
45:02resonates with the way my brain works so
45:04it works well and I like a sauna you
45:06know there’s competitors to a two out
45:08there of course but that’s one tool that
45:10really I can fly through an immense
45:14amount of workload at a very quick time
45:16did you get to work with them at all
45:17when you were over at Google I mean
45:19obviously you’re in two different area
45:20III know yeah I did I I didn’t they had
45:22actually created that before i was at
45:24Google short but but I i have to admit
45:27when I was inside Google and maybe I
45:29shouldn’t say this but i will now that I
45:31just have no idea why internally google
45:34doesn’t use it or something because
45:36there’s a real over-reliant just doing a
45:39gmail searched to manage tasks well
45:42maybe someones listening up right now
45:43maybe they’ll don’t start you know I’m a
45:47big I’m a big quote guy I like to
45:49motivate people you know you know I like
45:52to be inspired and and and and and
45:54certainly I think this has been very
45:56inspirational and i think that there’s a
45:59lot of people out there that that are
46:01going to certainly get a lot out of it
46:02so can you can you tell us a quote or
46:04mantra that kind of inspires or
46:06motivates others and that you’ve also
46:08kind of lived by or it kind of helped
46:11you I know you’ve mentioned one already
46:13and we already have that one but if you
46:15can sort of throw out another one I
46:17think that would be terrific well I
46:19don’t know if this is going to resonate
46:21too much with some people but I’m just
46:23going to do it anyway and it is from the
46:27Bible in the New Testament I’m sorry to
46:29do that the folks that may not like it
46:30but it’s really important because it’s
46:31the law of the harvest and it’s in the
46:33book of Galatians and for what
46:35it is just that the concept there of
46:39course in doing this is that what you
46:41reap it will use so what you read and so
46:45I’ve the cause and effect and the
46:47natural laws of cause and effect have
46:50been very big Governor on success for me
46:54and in my life and so that’s kind of
46:57where I first understood the concept of
47:00the law of the harvest that if you want
47:01to harvest something in late summer you
47:03better do the hard work of planting and
47:05prepping the soil in the spring and sow
47:08you reap what you sow is basically you
47:13know the law of the harvest and where I
47:15got that quote was from in that book so
47:19that it has you know there’s a lot of
47:22frustrations world for people not
47:24achieving or getting what they want and
47:26it’s too late when it’s autumn and when
47:32we should be harvesting to which we had
47:34done the work in the spring so it’s the
47:36same thing in entrepreneurship you have
47:38to work your tail off in the early years
47:40of the venture in order to reap those
47:43great rewards later and it’s kind of
47:45funny we all sit in laments oh why is
47:47this not happening to me you know why
47:49can’t I be lucky or successful like that
47:52other person if you look behind almost
47:55every success sure there’s some
47:58serendipity involved but mostly it’s a
48:01lot of hard work and see that’s why I
48:04love this fast round because it tells us
48:07a lot about the people that were that
48:10were interviewing that we’re getting to
48:11know and I’m really glad that you
48:13actually mentioned that because my focus
48:16again is not only on business but it’s
48:18also our life and family and it tells us
48:20a lot about you so you know thanks
48:22thanks a lot for that I think that
48:24that’s that’s really super John can you
48:27tell us we talked earlier about how we
48:28could start our businesses in those
48:30first 30 or 60 days on unless capital
48:34them then we might think so this kind of
48:36question is a fun question in the sense
48:38that you don’t need to really spend a
48:40lot to get a lot so can you tell us a
48:42purchase of under a hundred dollars that
48:45has impacted your life the most
48:47under a hundred dollars that impacted my
48:50life else Wow okay that’s a good
48:52question well I’ll tell you what it is
48:54it’s a piece of software and there’s
48:58this software that used to be called
49:00quagger but now it’s called ever contact
49:02and I had this big problem I would have
49:05hundreds if not thousands of business
49:07cards piled up on my desk and they would
49:11never all fully properly get in to my
49:14contacts so I wouldn’t have the contact
49:17when I needed it and so what this piece
49:20of software did was on when I’m emailing
49:23it would watch my email and when it
49:26would when I would email somebody are
49:28having an email interact or something
49:30like I’ve had with you Mitchell sure it
49:34would go out and grab the contact
49:38information from the email itself from
49:41the person’s publicly social media and
49:43add that contact to my contact without
49:47me having to say new contact type and
49:49all that information it would do it so
49:51it really has changed me it’s a small
49:53little thing but when I mount about in
49:55my life and in the world and run around
49:57and you know two weeks ago i met
49:59somebody it used to be that when i
50:02needed their information and I go to my
50:04phone’s contact it’s not there and I go
50:06who was that person how do I contact
50:07really frustrating now almost invariably
50:11that same scenario two weeks ago i met
50:14somebody now i need them for something
50:15or I want to connect them or I want to
50:17do business with them I go to my
50:18contacts and they’re there it almost
50:20seems like it’s a competitor of like
50:23there’s a company out there called full
50:25contact or report rapportive or whatever
50:28and I guess but I’m conduct organized a
50:31good i love rapportive which is really
50:33good because that shows my LinkedIn
50:35right there but this literally blindly
50:37without me having interacts ads people
50:39to my contacts no I love it and I’m
50:42gonna I’m definitely going to check it
50:43out I think everybody else should goes
50:45out there too I think the entrepreneur I
50:47think just the last few weeks maybe two
50:50weeks i gotta that that company sold so
50:53it’s ever contact that’s the one and it
50:55shard up at three dollars a month and i
50:59was gladly paying it they upped it to
51:01port
51:01hours a month which is a 33-percent
51:02price increase and I gladly paid it
51:04because so the best $48 that you’re
51:07spending per year no thatthat’s
51:08thatthat’s great so again you don’t have
51:11to spend a lot to get a lot you’re
51:12actually leveraging great technology
51:15which i think is is wonderful you know
51:17we we always like to find out fun facts
51:20about the guests that comment on to our
51:23show that is not well known out there
51:27but just something to tell us a little
51:29bit extra about you okay well I play
51:33pickleball so okay do you know what
51:36pickleball is you know I’ve heard about
51:39it but I couldn’t I couldn’t describe it
51:42if you if you paid me so so just quickly
51:44tell us to tell us a little bit about
51:46pickleball because after i get off with
51:48you i’m going to actually look it up so
51:51yeah i can go to youtube and see some of
51:53the national championships pic of all
51:55the fastest growing sport United States
51:56it was involved yeah doe but it was a
51:59death in seattle by a junior high gym
52:02teacher when I was around junior high
52:04age okay lily has caught on so that’s
52:07why I got exposed to it early in my life
52:09and I’ve actually always had access to
52:11pick the ball and pickleball courts so
52:13I’ve actually been to national
52:15competitions I thought it was good till
52:17I did that because I got cleaned at the
52:19Nationals but anyway pickle ball is
52:22played on a court about a third the size
52:24of a tennis court and it’s played with a
52:27hard paddle in the Heart Ball so it’s
52:29kind of like standing on a huge
52:31ping-pong table and playing ping-pong
52:33and so it’s a racket sport like that but
52:37the Grail a mate of all yeah the great
52:40thing about pickleball is that after
52:42about age 50 your joints can really
52:44start hurting from tennis or those kind
52:48of sports pickleball is such a sport
52:50with the movement in it that your knees
52:52and your joints you can play 29 years
52:54old so there’s a lot of people that can
52:56continue being active throughout their
52:58life playing the sport and and and but
53:00it’s but it’s actually for a 20 year old
53:03super competitive and intense too so
53:05it’s really really fun that that’s great
53:08you know I’ll be I’ll be YouTube in that
53:09right at right after this dinner to 22
53:12other fast questions here in our fast
53:14round and then
53:15we’re going to find out how we can stay
53:16in contact with you and then just a word
53:18from our our final sponsor here and
53:21we’ll wrap it all up John so we want to
53:23thank you so what is the worst advice
53:25that’s being given to these young
53:26entrepreneurs today the worst advice
53:30they give it to them I repeat that
53:32question I’m thinking about while you’re
53:34asking that I would say that the worst
53:36advice is to well we touched on already
53:41is to go out and prematurely scale I
53:44mean everything in the river of life
53:47your society or friends when you say I’m
53:49going to be an entrepreneur they’re
53:50going what you caught it let me see your
53:52product on when you can be done when you
53:54launching there’s all this impetus and
53:56momentum to go build a product and
54:00quickly launch when reality they need to
54:04validate their business models so i
54:06guess the worst advice is the
54:08inadvertent advice that leads an
54:10entrepreneur to prematurely scale and
54:12pre- scale has now been proven to be
54:14seventy percent of the reason why
54:17dentures fail really is the tortoise and
54:20the hare one when you think of the word
54:23successful what first name comes to your
54:25mind arm successful first name cuz my
54:30gosh these are great question mitchell
54:33by the way Sean oh great I’m glad you’re
54:35enjoying it I know I am I know our
54:38audience is definitely going to enjoy it
54:39I’ve really gotten a tremendous amount
54:41out of this and I know I know we’re
54:43going to get great feedback too so yeah
54:46I think that kind of takes us into your
54:48mind if you can let us know that the
54:51asset real quickly I its people that
54:54have achieved greatness in in business
54:57and and created wealth and created great
55:00products but still kept their head on
55:02straight so and that one person is it
55:06probably if I had to have think of one
55:09person to think of it but the fellow
55:11named john huntsman here in utah yes i
55:14do i do know him very very well and as a
55:17matter of fact he would be not only
55:18awesome for our podcast but here’s a
55:21fella that in the late 60s early 70s who
55:24came up with the idea of styrofoam
55:2722 then kind of take that and sell that
55:30to mcdonald and from that one idea he
55:34became a billionaire and his son is very
55:36successful and his his granddaughter i
55:39think is on fox news i mean it’s just
55:42incredible John yeah and he and he kept
55:45his uh you know his personal beliefs and
55:49commitment and tact and and despite
55:52achieving great well so it’s pretty
55:54interests of you ever have you have you
55:56ever gotten to run in circles with mr.
55:58Huntsman um yes well especially his son
56:02of became governor of Utah certainly
56:04sure actually very very I know jon
56:07huntsman jr the older Huntsman i would
56:10have shaken his hand at an event
56:12somewhere in park city utah or something
56:14like that but i don’t know personal oh
56:15that’s you it’s a terrific example and
56:18you know I I think the world of him as
56:22well our wrap-up round Mitchell Chad
56:25row.com / photos for all your graphic
56:30design needs so John I mean you know
56:33I’ve just really thoroughly enjoyed this
56:35house everybody going to stay in contact
56:37with you well I can be reached you know
56:40startup ignition commas or website
56:42varies and see there and I’m my email
56:44address which is fine as Jay Richards at
56:46startup ignition calm and that’s an easy
56:48way to reach me that’s really terrific
56:49again John we just want to really thank
56:51you so very much trusted friends until
56:53next time thanks so much and take care
56:56of John thank you in closing let me have
57:00for my listeners help first please
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58:04iTunes until next time
The Post Entrepreneur, Educator, Advisor, Investor, John Richards, Startup Ignition, Show 026 was first published on mitchellchadrow.com
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